|
Post by gd3006 on Jan 22, 2009 22:03:25 GMT -5
OK, given that there are different sizes and classes of animals, I'll quantify this question a bit. IF you are hunting non-dangerous game, that doesn't exceed the size of an elk, what are your thoughts on penetration versus expansion? With the understanding that the answer lies somewhere between solids and varmint grenades, what do you prefer: complete penetration, or expansion that transfers all energy inside the animal? I'll chime in on this later...
gd
|
|
|
Post by Schrader on Jan 24, 2009 8:11:15 GMT -5
A couple of things to consider-
1) Penetration without expansion isnt always a good thing. Go shoot a couple of coyotes with 55gr. FMJ in .223...it doesnt work very well. Just poking a hole in something isnt enough for a quick, humane kill.
2) Is what you are shooting at something that you want to eat later on? You dont want to blow the crap out of it and end up picking pieces of bullet out of everything.
Bottom line...you have to balance the 2 of them.
A guy at work just went on an elk hunt out in western KS with a .50 cal muzzleloader. He shot a 250gr. Barnes MZ. The bullet opened perfectly and and retained like 97% of its weight after it was recovered...and the elk dropped where he stood.
To me, that is a perfect example of what you want a bullet to do.
Schrader
|
|
|
Post by gd3006 on Feb 18, 2009 23:00:11 GMT -5
Schrader,
Any bullet you recover obviously did the job. LOL! Great points. I will lean towards expansion just a bit, with the obvious caveat that you have to have ample penetration to reach the vitals. I'm currently using nosler ballistic tips for deer hunting, and absolutely love the results. A bit more carnage than with other projectiles, but not excessive. Rib meat is minimal on deer anyway.
gd
|
|
|
Post by flyman41 on Mar 5, 2011 21:08:34 GMT -5
Great thread guys. I woud side with Shrader on this. I think for smaller game, especially fur bearers where pelt damage is an important factor, energy transfer and tissue damage to the vitals is much more important than complete penetration. I also use ballistic tips for many hunting situations in several calibers.I have used them since thier inception in 1993. I think that's when it was. Even on deer size game, the "drop in the tracks" kill has been observed when the bullets energy was transfered in the form of shock waves and no exit hole. I still believe it is important to penetrate enough to inflict the proper amount of tissue damage also. I had a problem with the .270 Winchester using 150 grain ballistic tips when I first tried them. I worked up a phenomenal load that would group under a half inch at 100 yds but they would travel through a deer like a missle and I would spend a lot of time tracking them down. Not much energy was transfered to the vitals in the process. I slowed them down a hundred or so feet per second and it was an amazing difference in the next deer kill. I gave up the half inch accuracy for about an inch to an inch and a half but I put the deer down in it's tracks. Just my experience with this and just my two cents. I am new here and I hope I haven't overstepped my bounds by jumping in. I love shooting and handloading and also talking about it. Great thread. God Bless Dale
|
|
|
Post by gd3006 on Mar 10, 2011 18:51:48 GMT -5
flyman41,
Wow, I guess I would have expected the opposite results. Hmm... how were successive shots? Same lot/batch of bullets? I have shot a LOT of deer with the 7mm 140 gr BTs, and haven't really seen much difference in performance over a 3-400 fps range. That's part of the fun of reloading - experimentation with velocity, accuracy, and terminal performance. I guess it goes to show that the expected results are very rarely what you see (outside of the obvious).
BTW, jump in any time you want. Glad to have you here.
gd
|
|
|
Post by flyman41 on Mar 10, 2011 21:18:29 GMT -5
Thanks Guys. That was my experience withthe first time I tried .270 caliber Ballistic tips gd3006. I killed 6 deer with them and the first two were as I stated. A hole drilled completely through them with a entrance the size of the bullet and an exit the size of a dime. I slowed them down and got an entrance hole the size of the bullet and an exit much larger/. A couple with large holes in them. None of them were killed at more than 75 yards though so I cannot offer anything over that range for the .270. I have however shot 3 with the 30-06 180 gr ballistic tips and never had to change anything with the load. Awesome performance and recovered bullets were quite impressive. The largest retained 83% original weight with really nice looking mushrooms. I wish I would have photographed much of my experimental results but I didn't. As I eluded to before, my friend Richard Mann has written a book about bullets and thier performance and he invented the ballistic tube. I am in the process of obtaining some of these to play with and I am looking forward to more testing(playing) in the future. He also got me thinking about photographing everything and maybe using them in future articles. As you can probably tell I love shooting and handloading. I always have and I have wasted many a green back through the years just playing. Besides trapping I guess it is my # 1 thing outside of coaching youth football. This is what I consider my ministry for the area youth. That became my first love (Hobbies) 8 years ago. I have experienced many other things with lighter calibers in ballistic tips with Coyotes and bobcats. I will save those for other discussions as I have made this too long. God Bless
|
|
|
Post by gd3006 on Mar 11, 2011 18:31:23 GMT -5
flyman41,
I've never gotten any BTs out of any deer I shot with them (from 30 yards out to over 400). Can't say a couple of those didn't have bullets in them, but either fragments, or buried somewhere in the more odorous sections on steep quartering toward shots. Actually had one doe facing dead on that had exits at the rear portion of the rib cage on both sides of the animal (40 or 50 yard shot).
Got really lucky on that load - 1st load I tried for my rifle was sub 1". Played a bit with it to see if it would get better or worse on top and low end loads - didn't change hardly at all. I've messed around with a few more bullets in that gun, but only some 100 grain hollowpoints grouped nearly as well... Look out woodchucks!
gd
|
|
|
Post by flyman41 on Mar 12, 2011 12:37:14 GMT -5
gd3006 said -"I've never gotten any BTs out of any deer I shot with them (from 30 yards out to over 400)." I'd say that is the 7mm is awesome. I have never owned one but my best friend has and I can say the same about his. It blew holes no matter where he hit them. I have never owned one but I would like too. Flat shooter. Great cartridge. I will see if I can find some of the mushroomed bullets and take some pics. I use to keep all of them, weigh them, log the results and give them to my boys. Have you used the lighter weights in .22, .24 and .25 caliber? I have a 22-250, .243 and.257Roberts. I have used them in all of those and love them. I would like to hear some of your stories about hunting with the 7mm. Have you ever been out west? That was my dream that I will never realize now but I would still like to go just to see it.
|
|
|
Post by gd3006 on Mar 17, 2011 20:55:26 GMT -5
I spent 2 years hunting the west coast for blacktails and muleys and black bears... No luck.
I've got an open invitation to hunt South Dakota, and hopefully I'll pull it off this fall - we'll see.
For the BTs in smaller calibers, my favorite groundhog load is a 55 gr VMAX in the 22-250. Haven't played too much with the noslers in that gun - and I need to.
As for the 7 mag... It's pretty much overkill for a lot of my hunting (I.E. whitetails at 300 and under). Up close, the BTs will pretty much grenade, but have enough weight to get adequate penetration. Where it really shines is out past 300 yards. I took 2 or 3 deer this year at those distances this past fall, the longest being somewhere around 430 yards (I was prone shooting off bipods for all long shots). It gave good expansion while still giving complete penetration.
I'm actually considering going down to a smaller round for most of my deer hunting - maybe a 25-06 or the like. I almost bought one a few years back, and I'm considering it again...
|
|