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Post by Hardcase on Jun 8, 2008 21:44:36 GMT -5
The bible tells us that Jesus built His church on Peter and the Apostles. Scripture even tells us that the Apostles are the foundation of the church with Jesus being the main corner stone. When Jesus established His church, He promised that it would stand up to the jaws of death. So, I ask, where is this church today?
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Bro. Freddie
4 Pointer
Missionary Baptist Minister
Posts: 184
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Jun 9, 2008 17:59:41 GMT -5
It is still here! I believe that the church, although not named during Jesus' ministry, went through numerous persecutions because of their beliefs. They were named by thier persecutors and their name has been shortened over time. I believe the Baptists are that church.
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Post by Schrader on Jun 10, 2008 14:56:36 GMT -5
Bro. Freddie- Thats a pretty near-sighted, ignorant post.
I know that this sight is run and sponsored by (I believe) a Southern Baptist, and many members are Baptists.
I believe that to be a very arrogant statement to say the least. It is attitudes like that which continue to divide THE CHURCH to this day. If I dont get booted off, you (Bro.Freddie) have lost all credibility with me...Baptist Missionary or not.
Schrader
Let me also add that my grandparents were strict Baptists, and that my father went to a Free-Will Baptist Bible College.
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Post by Hardcase on Jun 10, 2008 20:27:29 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts, maybe I may have opened a can of worms! I am a Baptist, but I believe that the church as Christ intended it to be is not here. There have been too many changes made to all of the original denotations. No denotation follows the Bible exactly. Of course we are human, and that means we ALL make mistakes and sin. Schrader I think you were too hard on Bro Freddie. He is entitled to his opinion just as we all are. I will say this I try to live as the Bible says not as any denotation says to live my life. I think that is what God intended.
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Post by Schrader on Jun 10, 2008 20:54:35 GMT -5
I hope that everyone will forgive me for my harsh response...sometimes the things that I feel very strongly about bring strong answers...not right or wrong necessarily, but strong.
I think that we all live according to what the Bible says and apply it to our lives' experiences and thoughts. That is how our theologies and belief systems are formed. Ive studied some and all I can say for sure is this-[glow=blue,2,300]I serve God the best that I know how. That's all that any of us can do.[/glow]
No labels/denominations-men and women with a heart to serve God.
Schrader
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Post by Schrader on Jun 26, 2008 8:02:21 GMT -5
Bro. Freddie- I know some about that the Baptist denomination, but I guess Im lost when I try and trace back their roots to the time of Jesus. The only thing I could come up with is John the Baptist...am I missing something here? I would just like to understand why you think they are the church that Christ established?
Schrader
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Post by Josh A on Jun 26, 2008 8:46:56 GMT -5
I agree. I too would like to know where you are coming from on this point. As I have stated on here before, I do not belong to a denominational church and I never have, so I do not much understanding about any of the denominations or thier beliefs. I can however read. I read my bible, and while I may not have years upon years of knowledge and understanding under my belt, I believe I have a good base of knowledge and understanding to work with. So as my pastor would say, "can you give me chapter and verse on that?"
I'll take man's word for nothing & take God's word to live by.
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Bro. Freddie
4 Pointer
Missionary Baptist Minister
Posts: 184
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Post by Bro. Freddie on Jun 26, 2008 18:46:54 GMT -5
O.k. I'll try to state why the Baptists believe that the church was started before the day of Pentecost as most believe. But remember, you asked for it. ;D
When the first church was started, it was before the Day of Pentecost. If you will read the Gospels, and Acts, you will notice that the church was already practicing baptism, the Lord's supper, and had already had a business meeting when they elected Judas' replacement. Aren't these the things that churches do today? So if the church wasn't started on the Day of Pentecost, when was it started? I believe that it was started when Jesus called His first disciples on the shores of Galilee. The Sermon on the Mount was the ordination sermon to that church. Please re-read Matthew 5-7 with that in mind and see if that doesn't make sense.
After Jesus' death, resurrection, and accession, the church was persecuted fiercely. Think Saul. Now remember, the Lord never named His church. In some scriptures the church is called the church of God, and in others the church of Christ. But it was never given an official name. Anyway, the church was scattered abroad, teaching the same things that Jesus taught. Think Paul here.
After the scriptures were completed, the last apostle died (John) and the church kept growing. At the same time, heresies began to creep in. Men began to offer their own interpretations instead of "Thus saith the Lord". Now this is all recorded history, but after the Bible was completed. One of the first heresies that started to be taught was that baptism saves. After that, it was a natural progression for some to think that since baptism saved, it would be great for kids to be baptized, thus infant baptism was started. Now, the church withdrew from these heretics and from these heretics other denominations were started. These false religions started persecuting the church because they refused to accept false teachings. One of the main ones was that baptism saves. The church insisted on re-baptizing those who came from false religions. The church, though it never named itself, was given the name of anti-baptists by their enemies.
I could go on, but time and space prevent that. Eventually the anti was dropped and that is where the Baptists come from. If you are interested in reading more, I would suggest reading The Trail of Blood a small pamphlet that explains in more detail.
Now don't get me wrong. I am not saying that all Baptists are right, or even that most are. I have heard some things taught in baptist churches that if you study the scripture is pure heresy. But I do believe that the Baptists are descended from the church started by the Lord during His personal ministry.
Ok, that is what I believe, in a very condensed version. If you believe different, please think about this with an open mind and make your own decision.
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Post by Josh A on Aug 7, 2008 10:42:02 GMT -5
Bro. Freddie, We may just have to Agree to Dis-Agree
I have read the Gospels and Acts many times. I will say that it has been a while since I have read them straight thru, start to finish. But in all that I have read and all that I can recall, I have never seen what you are talking about here.
I believe where things first started to get skewed was the forming of denominations. There was a reason Jesus never named his church or made a call out to him denomination. It was never intended to be that way! That is something that man has implemented because somewhere down the line they where not grounded on the same fundamental and foundational truths. There was a disagreement, someone was confused, someone was deceived, etc. God is not the author of confusion or deception. These are attacks of the enemy.
Now as far as the aftermath, what has come out of these attacks of the enemy, the denominations that have been formed and are in place today, it is not my position or anyone else's to judge that. That is God's job.
I can't fault a man for being a little dogmatic when it comes to his belief system. If your not a little dogmatic about your belief system then you are on real shaky ground. Also, your belief system had better be grounded in the word of God and not in some mans ideas or thoughts. There are a lot of good (and not so good) books out there that are great learning tools but NEVER should a man's book replace the word of God.
This is truly a redundant argument. Bro. Freddie, you believe what you believe and that is why you are where you are. That is not a condemning or attacking statement and the same applies to myself and everyone else for that matter. If I all-of-the-sudden saw it your way, I would say my foundation and belief system was pretty shaky and you would probably have a new baptist believer standing next to you. And vice-versa.
But instead of trying to build up two differing ideas, I suggest we look at what beliefs and foundational principles we might share. Laying down some things for the building up of a Greater. Building the Kingdom, The Church, the way Jesus would have intended for it to be. Reaching out to brothers and sisters, reaching out to the lost, having a humble heart, and showing God's Love to a dead and dieing world that is literally going to hell in a hand basket. It's not about you or me.
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